ummm no offense.. and I know it's a show with a lot of Asian culture, but when you actually look at aangs features... he seems like a VERY white person to me. If you think about it, all the Nations people look different and if you had to put the Air Nomads somewhere.. they'd be the white ones.. (though only dark hair exists that I can see)

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Smurfs Bleed Mustard. That's why where's no more Smurfs at Camp Orkila, because we drink their blood on our hot dogs.

I think mostly everyone looks white
but I can understand why people want Asians because it goes with the culture.

(But Zuko is definitely not Indian, the 'Aang Aint White' group should have been more specific Dx )

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BOOM

[link] <---Gaia
[link] <---Youtube

From: [link]

The Face of the Other

By Matt Thorn

I have given presentations on manga to Western audiences many times, but regardless of the particular themes of my talks, when the floor is opened up for discussion I am invariably asked the same question: “Why do all the characters look Caucasian?” You may have asked yourself the same question.

I answer that question with a question of my own: “Why do you think they look Caucasian?” “Because of the round eyes,” or the “blonde hair,” is the common response. When I ask then if the questioner actually knows anyone, “Caucasian” or otherwise, who really looks anything like these highly stylized cartoons, the response may be, “Well, they look more Caucasian than Asian.” Considering the wide range of variation in the features of persons of both European and East Asian descent, and the fact that these line drawings fall nowhere remotely within that range, it seems odd to claim that such cartoons look “more like” one people than another, but I hope you will see by now that what is being discussed has nothing to do with objective anatomical reality, but is rather about signification.

A key concept in semiotics is that of “markedness” and “unmarkedness,” elaborated by linguist Roman Jakobson in the 1930s. An “unmarked” category is one that is taken for granted, that is so obvious to both speaker and listener it needs no marking. A “marked” category, by contrast, is one that is seen as deviating from the norm, and therefore requires marking. Well-known examples in English are the words “man” and “woman.” “Man” has for a millennium meant both “human being” and “adult male human being.” The word “woman” comes from a compound meaning “wife-man,” and denotes the relationship of the signified to that “unmarked” category, “man.”

In the case of cartooning, of course, we are dealing with drawn representations rather than words, but the concept of “marked/unmarked” is every bit as salient. In the case of the U.S., and indeed the entire European-dominated world, the unmarked category in drawn representations would be the face of the European. The European face is, as it were, the default face. Draw a circle, add two dots for eyes and a line for a mouth, and you have, in the European sphere, a European face. (More specifically, you would have a male European face. The addition of eyelashes would make it female.) Non-Europeans, however, must be marked in drawn or painted representations, just as they commonly are in daily conversation (e.g., “I have this Black friend who...”.


The grotesque racial and ethnic stereotyping of former decades has been largely purged from the mainstream, but only to be replaced by less offensive, yet nonetheless stereotyped, signifiers. Non-Europeans living in a European-dominated society absorb these standards themselves, and not only are continuously made to be aware of their “otherness,” but adhere, out of necessity, to the Eurocentric system of signification. If an American of Asian descent wants to create a children’s book intended to build self-esteem among Asian American children and educate other children about Asian American experiences, she must first make sure the readers know that the characters represented are Asian, and so, consciously or not, she resorts to stereotyped signifiers that are easily recognizable, such as “slanted” eyes (an exaggerated representation of the epicanthic fold that is often, but not always, more pronounced in East Asians than in Europeans or Africans) or pitch black, straight hair (regardless of the fact that East Asian hair can range from near-black to reddish brown, and is often wavy or even frizzy). So it is that Americans and others raised in European-dominated societies, regardless of their background, will see a circle with two dots for eyes and a line for a mouth, free of racial signifiers, as “white.”

Japan, however, is not and never has been a European-dominated society. The Japanese are not Other within their own borders, and therefore drawn (or painted or sculpted) representations of, by and for Japanese do not, as a rule, include stereotyped racial markers. A circle with two dots for eyes and a line for a mouth is, by default, Japanese.

It should come as no surprise, then, that Japanese readers should have no trouble accepting the stylized characters in manga, with their small jaws, all but nonexistent noses, and famously enormous eyes as “Japanese.” Unless the characters are clearly identified as foreign, Japanese readers see them as Japanese, and it would never occur to most readers that they might be otherwise, regardless of whether non-Japanese observers think the characters look Japanese or not.

When non-Japanese characters appear in a manga in which most characters are Japanese, that character will be differentiated from the others with stereotyped racial markers of some kind. For example, a character of African descent may be shown with pronounced lips, frizzy hair, and shaded skin. A European character may be shown with a pronounced nose and jutting jaw.

Such is my argument, but many find it unconvincing. They insist that manga characters are unmistakably “Caucasian,” and that the ubiquity of Caucasian characters in manga and Japanese popular culture generally are clear indicators of a desire on the part of Japanese to identify themselves with the European West, rather than the Asian East. Indeed a number of Western scholars have suggested that Japanese today harbor just such a desire, that they deny their “Asianness” and try instead to identify themselves with the Western, “white,” Center. The curious fact that Chinese characters appearing in manga are often portrayed using the same markers of “Asianness” (slanted eyes, straight black hair) common in Western representations may seem to be irrefutable evidence of this assertion.

Yet such assertions are rife with flaws. First of all, they seem to take domestic concepts of ethnic identity that have developed in the politically charged context of an ethnically diverse society, such as the U.S. or the U.K., and apply them wholesale to Japan, a foreign society, as if the Japanese were just another “minority” vis-a-vis a European American “majority.” For Asian Americans to assert their “Asianness” (regardless of whether or not such a trait actually exists) may be politically meaningful in the context of U.S. society, but it certainly does not follow that Japanese, or any other Asian people, should, or meaningfully could, embrace a similar identity.

Second, the notion that the Japanese harbor an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the White West seems to me based on the largely unconscious assumption that non-Western peoples envy the West, and more specifically on the American fantasy that everyone in the world naturally wants to be American. Of course, the scholars and intellectuals who note such tendencies in Japan do not applaud it; on the contrary, they cluck their tongues and wring their hands and wish loudly that the Japanese would shun the temptations of the West and remain true to and proud of their heritage. But the eagerness with which they seek out evidence of a desire to be “white,” and the stubbornness with which they ignore evidence to the contrary, suggests to me that their apprehension of social reality is heavily filtered through an unintended ethnocentrism.

Finally, the evidence of such an inferiority complex is hardly conclusive, and there seems to me to be as much evidence against it as there is for it. For example, the case of stereotyped representation of Chinese in manga can be explained without concluding that the Japanese identify themselves with the White West. Setting aside manga in which stereotypes are used to get a laugh, or to assert a racist viewpoint (and that does happen from time to time), racial stereotypes usually appear in manga only when the stereotyped character is a minority within the story. A Chinese character in a manga set in Japan is marked, through stereotyped visual markers (and often speech habits, too), so as to distinguish her from the Japanese characters, who are in the unmarked category.

Interestingly, in a manga in which Chinese or European characters are the majority, such as a story set in China or Europe, majority characters are generally drawn exactly as Japanese characters would be drawn in a manga set in Japan, without any racial stereotyping at all. In the context of such a story, the Chinese or European characters are not Other, and markings of Otherness would be superfluous. The artist would make the foreign setting obvious through names, clothing, customs, architecture, and “rops,” rather than burdening every character with stereotyped racial features, which would limit her ability to distinguish characters from each other, and would also make it difficult for readers to identify with protagonists. Furthermore, if a Japanese character appears in such a story, she will usually be marked visually as Japanese, although usually only by black hair and eyes. (Readers are often expected to identify with such characters, and more exaggerated markings would interfere with that identification.)

Racial markings in manga, therefore, are generally relative. By contrast, an American comic book set in Japan or China would most likely portray every character with stereotyped racial signifiers (and probably with contrived accents, as well). It may be that Westerners, accustomed to non-relative, standardized racial markers, are baffled by the Japanese system of relative signification, in which a single artist may portray a Chinese character one way in one story (set in Japan), and very differently in another (set in China).

It may be true that Japanese are, on average, often ambivalent towards the West, towards America, and towards all things not Japanese. And, yes, they are often sharply critical of their own society, and may sometimes look to other societies for preferable alternatives. But in these respects, they seem to me to be pretty much like any other people. It seems to me there are far more interesting questions to explore, and so I will say no more on the subject, though I have no doubt that some of my readers will be reluctant to drop entirely the question of whether or not the Japanese want to be “white.”

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Ars et magica recreant innocentiam (Art and magic recreate the innocence.)

We have to take into consideration what I would like to call 'de facto concepts' found in works of literature that have graphic representation. These are the features and superficial details we see prevalent in a given work.

For example V must have this features in his mask, or Dr. Manhattan must have this hue, or Goku must have a tail.

What I am trying to say is that the opus of the Avatar featured fix details, like character and cultural features, and I think the casting made this problematic, and ultimately scandalous, for the following reasons:

1. The show placed the characters of Katara and Sokka in a Inuit-like setting.

2. The characters are brown toned.

3. I am no geneticist, but Caucasians are not brown nor have Inuit features.

4. To place Caucasians in a Inuit-like surroundings is ludicrous.

5. Either they change the setting, i.e. don't make it Inuit-like.

6. Or change the features of the thespians. Just like Eddie Murphy.
7. But if 5 would happen, it would destroy the 'de facto concepts', and from experience we learn that destroying 'de facto concepts' are not rewarded, i.e. Dragonball, Max Payne etc.

8. But if 6 would happen, then why not cast Inuits, Native Americans, or Asians instead? Are you saying there is an absence of Inuits, Native Americans or Asians in America? Or are you just saying that we cannot act?

9. If 8 is true, therefore Hollywood is a racist institution.

10. The show placed the characters of Zuko in a Chinese-like setting.

11. The character have light complexion.

12. I am no geneticist, again, but South Asians do not fall under the Mongoloid genetic thread nor they have Chinese features.

13. To place a South Asian in a Chinise-like setting would be alienating, in so far that non-fans will find no connection in a Chinese-like Empire with South Asian individuals actually leading it.

14. Fans would always judge and compare the de facto concepts that showed explicitly maintained with that of the movie. And the de facto concept for Zuko is anything but South Asian-like.

15. Either they change the setting, i.e. don't make it Chinese-like.

16. Or change the features of the thespian.

17. But if 15 would happen, as I said earlier, it would destroy the 'de facto concepts', and ultimately the spirit of the show.

18. I can just imagine M. Night doing a cameo for Cababge Man.


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Ars et magica recreant innocentiam (Art and magic recreate the innocence.)

Whoops, many spelling errors, but you get the point. Haha.

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Ars et magica recreant innocentiam (Art and magic recreate the innocence.)

well... nice quoting others, but Avatar: The Last Airbender was created by Michael Dante DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko, who are American... by the way, and Avatar: The Last Airbender isn't Anime OR Manga or from Japan at all... though the creators went somewhere in Asia ( I can't remember where right now...) to learn about the culture and such. Also, a nation is basically like a country or continent, and each groups people look substantially different.

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Smurfs Bleed Mustard. That's why where's no more Smurfs at Camp Orkila, because we drink their blood on our hot dogs.

I see you are American and have to assume the best that you are ignorant, totally devoid, of the social issues this live-action is spurring and why it is ultimately and deeply scandalous.

Anywho may I convert your objections in the following premises (if you think how I interpret your objections are uncharitable do point it out)as we can have a better picture on where you stand:

1. If something is created by American, but the content is inspired by something not American, it is logical to say that it is still American.

2. It is not Anime or Manga therefore the cartoon is Caucasian.

3. Since people in that alternate universe that look substantially different, therefore there are Caucasians in it.

Now don't tell me you can't see the errors in this logic?

An American Caucasian creator can create a universe inspired by non-Caucasian elements, as we have seen in the Avatar, but it is silly to say that since the creator is white, therefore the creation is white.

Creator /= Creation.

You must judge not from the creator's details, but by the creation's details. Shakespeare is an Englishman, writing about a Merchant in Venice, now don't tell the Venetians in that universe are English in reality.

This goes to with the style you raised in no. 2. Even though we can argue to Kingdom Come if the style is Anime-ish (fact: Koreans done some of the animation and elements of Anime are found in the series, i.e. Big eyes = innocence), I won't go there but rather say to you this judge the creation by its details. So what do we know in this series?

1. It is explicitly Asian (c'mon don't you tell me that they don't write in Chinese calligraphy nor do haikus nor wear Asian clothing)
2. No blonds in the opus.
3. No blacks in the opus.
4. No one wears any traces of Western clothing.

So from these facts, what can we conclude? See, even if the style is not manga, we can still judge a work from its elements. And it is foolish to say it is Western.

And lastly, on no. 3, being substantially different does not default to white. To say such, is a mark of ignorance, childish at its best, racism at its worst.


For more FAQ: [link]

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Ars et magica recreant innocentiam (Art and magic recreate the innocence.)

"4. To place Caucasians in a Inuit-like surroundings is ludicrous."

I don't know about Caucasian, but these guys look a lot lighter skinned than Sokka. But they're from the same Water Tribe.

I think the Avatar world is meant to portray the prejudices we hold in our world in a different light. The people of their world are discriminated against because of their element, rather than their skin color. It's essential to the plot. To remove any doubt about that, it's important that they portray all four nations as multi-ethnic.

Not all Air Nomads are light-skinned, as seen here. No one would've batted an eye if Aang were brown in the cartoon.

These girls are all among the same priviledged status in the Earth Kingdom, even with the varying skin tones and features. So race is no indicator of status.

Katara and Sokka fit in just fine and didn't cause suspicion in the Fire Nation for having dark skin, because that's no indication of where they belong. Brown skinned people are accepted just fine even in the "evil" Fire Nation. (With light-skinned servants, no less.) Because that's not the issue in this story.

And I believe it shouldn't be made into an issue for the movie adaptation, either. It would defeat the purpose of the message entirely to discriminate against qualified and skilled actors, or fire those already hired, based solely on race.

Of course, we could always have Fire Nation played by actors of Chinese descent attacking a Tibetan inspired temple and exterminating the monks and nuns. But I'd much rather save that for a documentary, rather than a movie based on a kids' show.

Regarding #1 of what you've said: What I meant, because you've misinterpreted, is that it's not completely Asian, only in the sense that it doesn't come originally FROM Asia, though I never said that being not Asian but almost Asian and having American people create the show made the SHOW American, because it does not. The show is one of it's own, it's not that the show IS American, just that some of the people creating the show are... well... technically, the show is American, because (if I'm remembering right, tell me if I'm not please) this show was originally made for televisions around America, though the show's CHARACTERS are not really... well.. they're their own races really... but comparing them to OUR races is really the best we can do, now isn't it? (though I do agree that they could have used some Asian people in the movie, because if you really compare, at LEAST the all the Fire Nation's people would be Asian)

2) If by the Cartoon being Caucasian, you mean the Characters IN the cartoon being Caucasian, then no, that is not at all what I meant it to sound like... that would be terribly racist of me and I would hate for anyone to mistake me for such a racist person!
But, if you mean that the Cartoon, because it's not Anime or Manga, that it MUST be Caucasian, the NO I don't feel that way either, I just meant that it's creators are Americans and Caucasian, (which really means nothing... because they are American... and they could be any race really....) and I didn't mean that the only thing besides Anime or Manga is Caucasian cartoons.... because that's just not it either!

3) Well... yes they are in an alternate universe, and yes they do look substantially different, but NO I didn't mean to seem like there must be Caucasians, I really meant, that in an alternate universe, they have different people too, and therefore DIFFERENT races, races that don't exist, just like Flying Bison don't exist ( I don't think...) but I was just expressing that if people from the Avatar Universe were to make a movie about the show.... (but that'd be impossible) then obviously, if they were to have tried, they would have Water Tribe as Water Tribe, Air Nomads as Air Nomads, and so on, but, since people of THIS universe are making the movie, and we simply don't have Air Nomads, Water Tribe, Earth Kingdom, or Fire Nation people, we have to get as close as we can get. (though I don't think whoever picked the Actors WAS trying that hard)

I did not mean that if the creator is white, the creation is white, or even think it for one second. That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard... and I most certainly wouldn't even think it!

I am quite offended that you've come to such conclusions and have such ideas about me on such matters. I must say that I do sound childish the way you've put me, and I don't know how you could possibly infer such racism and childish ignorance about me.

You have completely misinterpreted my entire thoughts and ideas on the subject, please try harder to understand what I am saying before you reply to this. Also, I am a bit curious to know what race YOU are, no, not because I'm racist, for I am not, but because I've known many people who infer such things, and have come to learn what they think about people like who you've inferred I am. and also, how old are you, because you must be quite educated to come up with such smart (but also very incorrect) remarks. I happen to be a 14 year old Caucasian from america, now, who are you???

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Smurfs Bleed Mustard. That's why where's no more Smurfs at Camp Orkila, because we drink their blood on our hot dogs.

Haha, sorry about that if I sounded cocky, but you have to understand how scandalous the issue with the casting is. Since you are horrified, as I am, on how you sound, if we do restructure your reply, then be happy that at least you are not a racist, though I have to warn you that tolerating it is no better than supporting it.

That is why I did offer a disclaimer on the first part of my reply, that you did not perceive the gravity and racism in your last reply. That's why I offer you chance to defend yourself.

Your awareness is improving but not quite for the following reasons:

1."but comparing them to OUR races is really the best we can do, now isn't it?"

2."and therefore DIFFERENT races"

Now I ask for number one, are there no Asian actors in America that at least can act? Further are Caucasians really that good as to supersede any other ethnicity to play a major role?

For number two, how different are these cultures in Avatar from our cultures in this world? What I mean can't we find something similar in this world that we relate to that world? If we can? What can we tell about it? If there is a culture that exists here, that inspired the cultures there, is it respectful to that culture that exists here, to casts a person outside that culture to represent such cultures?

To answer your last paragraph, I am a Filipino of 20 summers, living in the islands of the Philippines, with a very flung bloodline from Spain, which further can be traced from the Moors/Arabs who invaded Southern Iberia well before the 12th Century.

I am taking up Philosophy for my Bachelor's, graduating next March, plan to take it to my Masteral. I am a keen watcher and occasional commentator, of Political, Social, and Philosophical events both local and international.

Oh well, sorry if I came out as cocky, but you have to understand that this had been a long history of White Privilege in Hollywood, and I am greatly saddened that one of my favorite cartoons, which is explicitly Asian in influence, is being white washed due to the logic of all-cartoons-are-white or its-fictional-we-can-cast-whites.

Avatar adds another chapter to a long history of casting Caucasians for lead roles, regardless what culture inspired the story.

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Ars et magica recreant innocentiam (Art and magic recreate the innocence.)